Cal Banyan: Hello, everybody. Cal Banyan here. Cal Banyan’s Hypnosis, etc. And once again, I’m back with Erika Flint. And you know what we’re talking about? We’re talking about building your practice using the internet. A couple of episodes ago, we talked about using Google AdWords. We’ve talked about using Facebook. Well, now we’re going to get into talking about LinkedIn and Google+ and Twitter and Yelp and also about reputation management because your success hinges on your reputation. Marketing is when you’re trying to get one message out there to make your phone ring, but you’ve got to watch out. There’s other people that are marketing for you and against you and that has to do with your reputation.
All right, and a lot of this information is going to come from Erika. Let me tell you about Erika. Erika is a consulting hypnotist in practice since June, 2013. She’s busy building her practice of hypnosis. She plans to be full-time in just a few more months. Before being a hypnotist, Erika was in the high-tech industry of Silicone Valley. She was for over a decade a software engineer and professional problem solver when she realized that she really wanted to work with the most powerful computing hardware and software, and that is the human mind.
And since she received her initial training in Bellingham, Washington, she went through our 5-PATH 2.0, advanced hypnotherapy certification distance learning course on DVD, and became a 5-PATHer. Went through the certification, took the exam, everything and that’s how I got to know her. She was being active on our support group on Yahoo.com. Saw her at the National Guild of Hypnotists convention, had a nice conversation with her, and I was very impressed with this young woman. I believe that she is going to be a rising star in the profession. And what makes me think so? Yes, she’s smart. Yes, she’s driven. But one of the things that people forget is to really get somewhere in this profession, you have to really care and share. You have to be out there caring about the profession, caring about other hypnotherapists and caring about clients, and that’s what Erika’s doing. That’s what Brenda was doing. That’s what Celeste was doing. That’s what Meredith was doing when I asked them all to come co-host. You’ve got to have more than just brains, you’ve gotta have heart.
How you doing there, Erika?
Erika Flint: I’m doing great, Cal. Thanks for that great introduction. Now, let me introduce Cal. He is the hypnosis celebrity because of his fame in the profession and not just because of the hundreds of hypnosis training videos just like this one that he’s produced today. Because he’s received almost every award and recognition in the profession, which is quite remarkable. And his books have made him an authority on the subject of hypnosis and hypnotherapy. He wrote one of my favorite books, The Secret Language of Feelings. He’s also appeared on radio and television promoting the use of hypnosis. And he’s the authority on hypnosis that works and the person experts in the profession of hypnotism turn to for help and guidance. He’s the trainer for some of the best in our profession and he’s still teaching, he’s still speaking, he’s still writing, seeing private clients and making public appearances. And I’ve learned so much from him, from the class, I go back to the classic, Cal mentioned, the 5-PATH 2.0 DVD series. I pop that in and watch it every once in a while, learn more from him all the time. So, I’m just really happy to be here. It’s great to be here, Cal.
Cal Banyan: That’s right, Erika. You can’t get away from me. I even reside in your house. I reside in your car. CDs, DVDs, my voice is everywhere.
Erika Flint: That’s right.
Cal Banyan: All right. Good. So, now we’re going to be talking about LinkedIn, Google+ and Twitter. You know, some of these things I understand and some I gave up on a long time ago. So, I’ll just let you get the ball rolling and I’ll chip in here and there.
Erika Flint: Okay, yeah. I mean there’s so many social networking tools and products and apps and all sorts of things out, so how do you know what in the world you should be doing? Because, you know, we are humans. We have limited time, limited resources. You can’t go spending all day updating all of your status on every single social networking site out there. So, let’s start with just a quick survey with some numbers. I’m going give you some statistics here.
So, Twitter has 560 million active users, all right. 5,700 tweets a day. Facebook is the largest. We talked about that last time. One billion active users a day. Now Google+, all right. Google+ is really interesting. They have 400 million active users today, but they’re gaining market share almost a million new users every single day. That seems crazy. That’s a lot. And then of course, there’s LinkedIn. LinkedIn is a little bit different because it’s business oriented. They have 340 million active users. And with LinkedIn, one thing that’s distinguishable about them is that 79% are 35 years or older. Now, those are the ones I’m going to focus on today, but the other two leaders in social networking are Instagram and Pinterest.
So, the question is really, should you go social? And how can it help your business, right? So, I’m going to talk a little about the different aspects of these social networking tools and then we’re going to talk about your online reputation because it can really help or it can really hurt you and it’s really important that you are making sure you go out there and spend some time understanding your reputation and monitoring your reputation. I’ve got a really easy way for you to monitor your reputation. So, we’ll get into that near the end. What do you think about that, Cal?
Cal Banyan: Well, I think we’ve got a lot to chew on here.
Erika Flint: Yeah, so, I’m just going to briefly touch on some of these things. You know there’s so many sites out there, like I said, but we’re going to stick today with LinkedIn and Google, okay? Because Twitter, I’m not really going to talk about Twitter too much. I do have a Twitter account that I use and that’s pretty simple, pretty easy. Whenever I posted something big to Google+ and Facebook, I’ll put it on Twitter, but that’s not one of my primary things that I use right now.
What I want to start with is…
Cal Banyan: Let me interrupt, let me interrupt, because I want to get a word in here edgewise because I totally agree with you on Twitter. I don’t get Twitter. I was one of the, you know, probably first 100,000 people to log on to Twitter and I thought this is really great. But, you know what, for a hypnotist, I’m kind of a techie. You know I almost got a dual major in psychology and computer science. I dig that kind of stuff. But most people are not that technical and I think Twitter had been catching on, catching on, but I don’t know. Personally, I’ve given up on Twitter. I don’t know how to use it effectively. Every time we put up a video on CalBanyan.com, I tweet it out and say, “I hope something happens.” So, I just don’t get Twitter. I’ll just confess that.
Erika Flint: Yeah.
Cal Banyan: Now, Yelp. Yelp, I like. I think everybody should have an account set up on Yelp. They should encourage their clients to comment there. I think it’s important. Yelp comments come up in Google search results, so that’s a really important place to have set up properly, to encourage people to leave comments, to leave stars, ’cause you get your rate on one to five stars. And also to watch. We’re going to talk a little later about reputation management as far as what people are saying. So, go Yelp. I believe in Yelp. Google+, I don’t get it. I don’t understand it. I have a Google+ account. Every time we post a video, I make an announcement on there. I’m in some Google+ circles, but I don’t get them about using them appropriately. And LinkedIn, I thought LinkedIn was gonna die. It was like what’s LinkedIn about? So, there’s some things I’m very savvy about and some things I’m not very savvy about. So, please straighten me out.
Erika Flint: All right. Well, one thing to keep in mind about Google+ is that it is growing every single day, but one of the most important things to understand about Google+ is that if you’re using Google for search, your Google+ page is going to show up in search results. So, you want to make sure that you at least have a Google+ page, right? Because if you type in, like, let’s say that you go to Google and you type in “hypnosis” or whatever city you’re living in, right? And you type in your city name and “hypnosis,” you’re likely to get a list of hypnosis offices, businesses in your area and underneath that it will say Google+. There’ll be a link to their Google+ page. So, Google is really promoting their social networking site, Google+, which is in competition with Facebook, right, by putting links to Google+ right in their search results. So, you want to make sure that you definitely have a page.
What I do, because Cal, I’m kind of the same way, I kind of lean more toward Facebook because I kind of get it, but I still have my Google+ page, I created it and I go out there. When I have something to say, I’ll go to Facebook, I’ll go to Google and I’ll go to Twitter. I’ll put it in all three and you know, it doesn’t take too long. And you mentioned last time, you post three things a week. So, it’s not that big a deal to go and do it on these other sites as well, right? And you never know what’s going to happen a year from now, right? So, it’s a good thing that you would have your page now because your audience can slowly grow over time, right?
Cal Banyan: You know, I just like, well, I’m on Google and I typed in “hypnosis” and there’s… of course, Google, you know they know where you’re typing this in from and they bias the search according to local search results. So, number two is Banyan Hypnosis Center and in the print underneath that, it says, “By Cal Banyan in 28 Google+ circles.” So somehow that’s important. I don’t know why, but then underneath that is Yelp. And so, I’m on the first page of Yelp and in Google local search, I’m on there. And then Google+ on the same page, it says, “Happy Hypno Tuesday. Cal is back with other informative…” and so it’s the announcement on Google+.
So, you’re right. It’s a good thing we’re doing these things. And here’s another good thing. You don’t have to know a lot about this stuff to know more than most hypnotists, ’cause most hypnotists, they don’t know about this stuff, they don’t want to know about this stuff. So, if you take what Erika’s teaching you in this podcast and the three videos previously, and start implementing what we’re talking about, it’ll nudge you ahead of the other hypnotists in your area. It’s like the old thing where these two guys are camping and they see a bear. And the one camper starts putting on his tennis shoes. And the other camper says, “What, are you crazy? There’s no way you’re gonna be able to outrun that bear.” And he says, “I’m sorry to tell you, I don’t have to outrun that bear, I just have to outrun you.” ‘Cause the bear’s gonna catch the other guy, right? And then, the first guy with the tennis shoes on, he’s gonna get away.
The idea is you don’t have to be the super techie guy, you just need to be putting in a little bit more effort, a little bit more consistently, a little bit more knowledgeably than the other hypnotists in your area for you to easily rise like cream to the top. How’s that, Erika?
Erika Flint: That’s right. That’s so true, Cal. And one way that I like to use social networking is just to try and figure out, you know, like my voice, my message, like what I want to say, right? I’m thinking about, you know, is this something important that I want to share with my clients or customers, even if I don’t have a huge fan base or a lot of people in my circle, yet. I could, right? I could six months from now. I could a year from now. And so, it gets me thinking in the right direction, right? Like, what is my message? What do I want to say? So, it starts thinking about those things and it’s helping me kind of develop and kind of craft exactly what I want to say, you know, as a hypnotist for this job.
Cal Banyan: Exactly. You know you need to be clear, concise. You don’t want people to have to think too much. Here’s another thing. Have you heard of the marketing avatar where you try to think about who my perfect or average desirable client is. And then when you market, you market to that person, that avatar. Have you heard about that?
Erika Flint: No, I haven’t but that sounds like a really good idea.
Cal Banyan: Mm-hm. So, I mean there’s a lot of people who might call your office, but there’s a certain group who has the money, are willing to make the appointment, are willing to follow instructions, are willing to be hypnotized. You kind of think about who those people are, your ideal clients and marketing to them. That person has a way of looking at the world, they are a certain age, and putting that imaginary avatar together and then when you write your ads or write your articles, then you write as if you were talking to that person. Then that’s going to resonate with that person and they’re going to be more likely to act with your calls to action.
Gosh, this is a lot of stuff isn’t it?
Erika Flint: That makes a lot of sense to me. So, they’re going to be attracted to your ad because you had them in mind when you created it and then you’re gonna start attracting your ideal clients.
Cal Banyan: Exactly.
Erika Flint: Yeah. Well, let’s move on to LinkedIn real quick. Now, LinkedIn is a little bit different. It’s a professional social network so when I think about LinkedIn, I’m thinking about me, Erika the hypnotist, okay? I’m not necessarily talking to my clients per se, I’m more imagining that I’m speaking to other hypnotists and other people in the profession. Okay? So, that’s what I’m thinking about when I see LinkedIn. But everybody should have a LinkedIn profile. I know some people don’t. So, I definitely recommend you go have a LinkedIn profile. Your clients will look you up on LinkedIn. They will. They want to see if you’re legitimate, right? You can also have a business profile. So, you can have a personal professional profile, you can also create a profile for your business. Cal, have you done that?
Cal Banyan: Absolutely, but you know, that’s a really good point that clients are doing their research. And they’re getting on these different sources of media like LinkedIn and checking you out. Very good.
Erika Flint: Yeah, absolutely. You know, and they’re gonna say, how many people have recommended this person? And oh, if you have recommendations from other hypnotists, or recommendations from other people in the field, they’re gonna be much more likely to call you and think, “Oh, this person is definitely highly-respected in the field, this must be a great hypnotist. I’m gonna call them, they’re gonna be able to help me.” Right?
Cal Banyan: Right. I remember getting a notification last year. And I’m looking at CalBanyan.com and right hand column I have a graphic there that says, “LinkedIn Top 1% Endorsed for Teaching.” So, people are out there on LinkedIn endorsing me as a teacher, and LinkedIn keeps track of that and sent me this notification. I said, “Wow!” and I clipped that using my computer software and made it into a graphic that fits on my web site. It all has to do with credibility. Thank you, LinkedIn.
Erika Flint: Yeah, that’s a really good point. Now, I want to ask you question, Cal, because this might happen, okay. Once you have your social profile out there, you have your personal LinkedIn page and you have your company page and your Google+ and your Facebook company pages. Okay, we’re talking about your company stuff. What if somebody wants to be friends with you on your personal page? What do you do with that, Cal? I think I know what your answer is, but I just want to make sure.
Cal Banyan: Well, I’m quite different than a lot of hypnotists. And that is, I actually, I would bring them down onto my desktop on my computer here and I have a canned response to that, that I send them. And I say, “Hi, thanks for requesting to be my friend on Facebook. I’m going to ask you a favor. In order to keep me better organized I developed a page dedicated to the topic of hypnosis on Facebook. This new page is actually set up for all my hypno friends who watch our weekly hypnosis videos on CalBanyan.com. I hope you have a look. I think it’s a pretty good idea and the folks at Facebook are encouraging everyone to do this if they are focusing on a special topic like we do on hypnosis. Here is a link to my hypnosis page on Facebook. Facebook.com/hypnosisetc. I hope you’ll join me on this hypnosis page rather than being a friend on my personal profile page. This is working out really well for all my hypno friends. Thanks and see you on Facebook.”
So, I redirect them to the fan page, but I don’t call it a fan page. I say it’s my hypnosis page, it’s the page that I set up for focusing on hypnosis. So, there’s very, very few hypnotists on my personal page on Facebook. Those people are people who’ve been to my house, who know my kid’s name, maybe know my cat’s name, you know that kind of thing. And all my professional relationships, all my professional stuff is done through Facebook.com/hypnosisetc. How’d that sound?
Erika Flint: I think that’s a great idea. I didn’t realize that you could have an auto responder with a message for someone sending you a friend request.
Cal Banyan: It’s not auto-responder. But when I get them, I have a Notepad page saved to my desktop.
Erika Flint: Oh, got it.
Cal Banyan: I just go in, open it, Control-C, then paste it into the response.
Erika Flint: I see, okay. So, you just have a template that you send them.
Cal Banyan: Exactly.
Erika Flint: I like that. That’s a really good idea because there are tools out here. If your client has your email address, they might just automatically friend you with some of the “Who You Might Know” tools that go into your email, right? They might just automatically friend you or they might friend you kind of on purpose, right? And you want to make sure that you know how to handle that without hurting anybody’s feelings or something.
Cal Banyan: You gotta watch out for those hypno-stalkers.
Erika Flint: Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Now, let’s talk about Yelp now because you mentioned this before and so I think it’s really important that people really understand how important it is to manage their digital reputation because people can go and they can recommend you or they can give you a reference, they can give you four or five stars, you know on your Facebook fan page. So, it’s really important to make sure that you are looking at all of these things. Now, I created a Yelp page a long time ago. I don’t know if people here in Bellingham are really using Yelp for hypnosis, I think they’re using it for restaurants. I’ve never had anybody that has filled that out yet, or recommended me, or gave a reference or anything like that yet, one way or the other. I think it’s really important that people go out there and create that page so that when somebody does, they’ll be alerted that there’s a new one out there so that you could manage it if something were to come up, right?
Cal Banyan: Exactly. You know, you need to Google yourself and find out what’s going on. You need to have a Google or Yahoo alerts set up. And here’s another thing that I did. I’m typing up to see if I can find it. Cal Banyan review. ‘Cause that’s something that people will do. They will type in your name and “review.” And I have a web site, CalBanyan… I’m trying to get that right, I think that’s right. CalBanyanReview.com. And on that web site, yeah, there it is. CalBanyanReview.com and it’s just me posting feedback and testimonials in a blog-type format and so when people type in Cal Banyan review, that comes up along with my Yelp stuff and other stuff or book reviews on Amazon.com so that I can provide a balance to any kind of thing negative that does come up. By the way, I’ve got a couple of sayings, Banyanisms. One of them is, “If you can’t afford to do it right, you can’t afford to do it.” So, you need to be doing things in the highest most ethical way possible. You need to let people know that you care, that you do things in the highest ethical way.
Here’s the thing, live your life with such high ethics that when competitors or other people talk negatively about you, other people will just find it hard to believe. They will doubt that negative stuff. So you know, constantly be giving out, giving to the profession, giving to others, being truthful, doing things the right way. When someone tries to call you names or accuse you of things you didn’t do, it’ll just not be credible. I think the overwhelming good that you put out is one of the best ways to handle your reputation. Now, of course, I still do the other things.
I’m just like Erika said. I have Google and Yahoo alerts out there for my name: Cal Banyan. Also “Calvin D. Banyan,” which is like my legal name, birth name. So, if anything comes up, an article, a review or something, I know about it and I can talk to that person. Like let’s say someone, you know we get book orders and CD orders and DVD orders all the time and let’s say somebody falls through the crack and they’re trying to get some kind of service and we don’t handle it well. And they get on some Yahoo group or Google group or LinkedIn group and complain about it. Chances are I’ll be alerted to that and I can go right to that person and say, you know, “I noticed that you mentioned on LinkedIn hypnosis group that you weren’t happy with something we did. I feel terrible about that. Something must have happened. It fell through the cracks. What can I do to make it right?” And when you handle things like that, I think you’re just gonna have this steel-clad reputation of trying to do things right. How’s that sound?
Erika Flint: You’re right. You’re absolutely right and I think it’s absolutely important for people to understand that whether you are using Yelp and Angie’s List. We didn’t mention Angie’s List, yet, but I know some people that have used that for hypnosis before, so you might want to sign up there, even if you’re not signed up there yet, your customers and your clients might be and they can still have a review for you there, even if you don’t have a business page yet. Somebody else can create a review for you without you even creating your own yet. So, it’s better for you to create your business page first so that you get alerted when there’s new reviews, right?
Cal Banyan: Exactly. Good.
Erika Flint: But the last thing I wanted to mention and you’ve already brought this up, Cal, is how important it is to understand what’s going on using Google Alerts. So, you can go to Google.com/alerts. Now Cal, you mentioned that you type in your name. So, you can type in different versions of your name and you’ll get an email every day if something comes up in the news, right?
Cal Banyan: Right. That’s right.
Erika Flint: Yeah, exactly. So, what I also do is I put it under my business name as well. So, I want to know if somebody has mentioned my business name or any version of my business name too. So, I have all those alerts set up and I think that’s… I was gonna recommend doing Cal Banyan Review, but if you have Cal Banyan, then you don’t need to add the word “review.” It will show up. So, those things are really nice because then you’re gonna know straightaway if something has appeared online and you can go address it. And you know, usually it’s going to be good, right? So, that’s a good thing. You know, you probably don’t get too many bad reviews, right?
Cal Banyan: Well, the deal is, there’s very few people, in fact I don’t know of anyone that’s as vocal on the internet as I am. You know, I try to be very considerate, but my views get out and I say what I believe. I remember a couple of years ago I had this series on CalBanyan.com, podcasts of dumb hypnotists mistakes. There’s things that are going on out there in the profession that I think are just dumb and I say it. You know you’re gonna pick up some complaints along the way. If you don’t have some people out there that are irritated with you or feel threatened by you, then you’re probably not doing much. It’s just the way it’s going to be.
We’d like everybody to love Cal Banyan. I mean, that would be wonderful, but I could not do what I need to do, and that is call white, “white,” and black, “black,” and gray, “gray” when I see it that way, out of my caring, for trying to help to raise this profession and help good confident and competent hypnotists without frightening some people, alienating some people. It’s just the way it is. If you’re not irritating some people, scaring some people, and hopefully a small percentage of the people hearing you, then you’re probably not doing anything worthwhile. And you try to handle that, the complaints, the best you can. How’s that?
Erika Flint: That sounds good. That’s the best that you can do, right? And you know, if you’re saying a message that’s important to you, you know, of course it’s probably going to ruffle some feathers because it’s probably a new great idea, right? I mean, it’s different.
Cal Banyan: Right. You know for example, I have a couple, three, four books on Amazon.com and some people are gonna rate it four stars, others five stars, and then, I was trying to look it up. Hypnosis and Hypnotherapy on Amazon.com and it’s got something like 54 reviews or something like that. And I think it’s like four and a half stars and you know, then you’ve got two or three people who give it one star. Just the preponderance of positive ratings just invalidates the negative ratings. Oh, it’s up to 60 reviews now and it’s four and a half stars. Heck, I’ll take that. I think it invalidates the people who decide to give it one star. I mean, why would they do that? It’s a valuable book, it’s been called a modern classic. So, there you go. You can’t please everybody, but certainly when you do know that somebody’s upset, I say, see if you can connect to them, see if you can make it right. And sometimes, you just have to agree to disagree and just try not to be disagreeable when doing it.
Erika Flint: Right, and if you know about this stuff, the sooner you can deal with it, the better, right? You don’t want it sitting out there and you not being aware of it for months and finally somebody mentioning it to you in the hall or something, you know what I mean?
Cal Banyan: Yeah, and that’s where Google Alerts and Yahoo Alerts comes in. So, just type in, search Google Alerts. And it will come up and it’s really simple to fill out and to get that right. And you can also do that with some of the other. Put your name, your business name, other people’s business names. Like for example, the National Guild of Hypnotists. I have a Google Alert for that because I’m a member of the National Guild of Hypnotists, I stand behind them 100%. The best organization going in the world of hypnosis as far as I’m concerned. I think, objectively, anyone would say that, and I want to know what’s going on. If a news article comes out or if someone is doing a review. Then I’ll call the president of the National Guild and say, “Congratulations on this article that came out” or “Did you know so-and-so is saying this?” And when you start providing that sort of important information to the organization, I think they really appreciate that. I know Dr. Damon does when I give him a call.
Erika Flint: Yeah, we’ve got to stay on top of these things and there’s tools out there to make it easier, right? You don’t have to spend all day, all week out there doing this stuff. You can go out there and spend an hour maybe a week and with those automated alerts, you don’t have to do anything if you don’t hear anything. So, that’s all good news.
Cal Banyan: That’s right. Or you can just, if you’re wondering what’s going on now, you can just type whatever it is into Google and then there is a news link at the top and it’ll just instantly, you don’t have to wait for a report to come, give you whatever news is going on at the top. Cool. Are we done?
Erika Flint: That’s it. That’s all I wanted to talk about. There’s a lot going on out there socially, so I hope that this helps you understand what you should be doing and you know, kind of the top things. LinkedIn, Yelp, Twitter. We both kind of had a “maybe not” review there. Maybe someone else will let us know how they’re using Twitter, right? That would be interesting to find out. Google+ is growing. We didn’t really talk about Angie’s List but I do have a business profile out there, just in case somebody does a review for me.
Cal Banyan: You know, yeah. Let me ask you something. So, what do you think about this podcasting stuff? Is it what you thought it would be? Being on here? Co-hosting with me?
Erika Flint: Yeah, I like it. It’s fun. You know, it makes me think and it’s a different part of what I do, right? I see clients nearly every day and then I get to spend some time with you going over things that are important and talking about them.
Cal Banyan: That’s right. Remember when you first got started, you thought, “Boy, I wish I could ask Cal Banyan this and Cal Banyan that? Well, now you can.
Erika Flint: That’s right. Yep.
Cal Banyan: So, next time when I have you on, we’ll probably move away from this marketing stuff and get into some more nitty gritty of hypnosis. Will that be okay with you?
Erika Flint: Yeah, that’s great. Let’s get back to talking more about hypnosis. I agree.
Cal Banyan: Well, we call this program “Hypnosis, Etc.” because sometimes we talk about the Et Cetera. We really did that a lot in these last four podcasts. And I really appreciate you coming up with this topic and sharing like you have.
Erika Flint: Well, it’s been great to be here, Cal, and I just want to share with everybody, be your authentic self. You’re the only person in the world that can do it and the world is counting on you to do that. We want to hear you, so go and do that.
Cal Banyan: Awesome. All right, everybody, I want to see you in class. Check out CalBanyan.com. Click around. Become a V.I.P. member. There’s a link up above and what happens when you become a V.I.P. member is, we’ll send you a link to a page that has every single podcast listed by title and in chronological order, starting with the most recent and going back to the very first, and each one of those titles is linked to the podcast. It’s a veritable video encyclopedia of hypnosis and hypnosis marketing. So, do that. It’s fun, it’s easy and we’ll keep in touch. Also, every week we put a new podcast, we’ll send you a little newsletter letting you know what it’s all about. All right, see you in class. See you at the N.G.H. convention. Let’s love this profession to a higher level. Let’s show everybody we care because, heck, why else would we do this stuff? Bye for now. Cal Banyan